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Forum:	School Projects
Topic:	Who started castles?

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T O P I C R E V I E W
j.lo Hi i have been looking through the forum and sorry if im wromg am yet to find the answer to my question. Who started of castles first was it the Normans? i have asked people but i am struggling to find the answer. People are giving me different answers and i am confused. I have used encyclopedias on the computer and lots of books from home and school
anyone able to help it will be grately appreciated thanks
j.lo
Peter j.lo
you may never get a straight answer.
Castles evolved over thousands of years, along with mans needs & wants.
We can (I suppose) start with some of the early Hill Forts. Though to call them a 'fort' is some what of a misnomer. You will no doubt know yourself that they covered many acres.
These are spread all over Europe (with which I will just deal with). But as times became more settled people moved to the lowlands in smaller groups. Perhaps here the fortified village was born. In German areas and England these villages\camps quite possible had seperate 'strong' area. Where last ditch defense was possible.
Having said that you will find in east walled cities in biblical times. I think I have mentioned before the huge walled cities of the Etruscans, which in many cases were expanded by the Romans. These in turn taken over in Medieval times.
In short, no one can say when castles started, or who started them. They evolved over many years. Some people point to certain areas of Northern France, and the Normans. But modern opinion is that the Normans did not build in stone straight away. But copied the idea of a 'stone hall' within a wooden fortified enclosure.
Other people on the site may not agree with my thoughts, and follow their own line of thinking. You will just have to study the possibilities and form your own conclusions.
Merlin The normans sure weren't the first ones to build castles, but they have developped their own kind of castles. The fotified viking village or fort in Scandinavia was round: A high circle-wall with a crossroad in its centre, protecting 8 or 16 wooden houses, placed geometrically in the four quarters.
This kind of castle wasn't common in the rest of Europe. The kings and noblemen of the german tribes outside the roman Empire had hill-forts as described by Peter. The medieval castle, appearing itself in very different types, was a descendant of those forts, but also of the late roman fortifications which were often build in stone and sometimes reused as castles from the 6/7th cent. AD onwards. But in Europe, stone-castles older than 11th cent. AD are very rare, except some larger royal castles. The kings and emperors in Germay and France started to build strong walls around their residences in the 9th cent. AD, due to the invasions of the hungarians, normans and Saracens.
Fox Atreides I did I did!!! I started them!
No, you're all wrong, I did!
No way, it was me!
Hehe, had to do that...
------------------
-Mattun-
The world can be as you want, when you are as the world wants you.
Peter I didn't realise 'Norman' was a Dutch name !
Fox Atreides It isn't, why?
------------------
-Mattun-
The world can be as you want, when you are as the world wants you.
AJR To get back on the topic this thread is all about - that is who started castles, it does of course depend on ones definition of a castle.
The Scandinavian "castles" seem to me to be mainly fortified villages. It depends which was there first - the houses, or the fortifications. If the fortifications came first, or if they were built simultaneously, then I am ready to accept that they were an early form of what we now call a castle. However, if the homes had been there for some time before the fortifications were erected, then I would call it a fortified village.
Andrew
[This message has been edited by AJR (edited 06-06-2001).]
Merlin The walls and the houses were erected simultanously, always near the coast. So the viking castle-village (I agree, it's a mixed form) was a secure plave near a landing-point, it's function comparabale to that of any other 'pirates-nest' of later centuries. But the later, non-viking scandinavian castles are not similar to those early structures. But I just found pictures of the viking castle at Eketorp, that was reused in later times, the surrounding wall rebuild in stone. Have a look at:
http://www.raa.se/eketorp
Merlin
[This message has been edited by Merlin (edited 06-06-2001).]
Gordon Definition is certainly important, and in a wider definition, the mysterious Brochs of Scotland could be included. Some of these date to BC, and whilst their role as a residence has been questioned, they were certainly central to the communities they served, and most definitely provided protection against armed raiders. On the British scene they seem to predate the Roman invasion. These are stone structures, however later mottes & bailey castles were not and are regarded as castles.
By inculding these, the ancient hill forts, it could be argued, should also be included.
Essentially the point is that Peter is right in that castles developed from pre-existing structures, and this was a continuous process which began when man first began to build himself homes.
To actually draw a line and state castles began here is impossible, unless one formulates a definition which is very very specific as to the type of structure included,(another impossible task given the variety of castle styles), or includes era/date boundaries, excluding what went before and after. This in itself would exclude many structures which are generally included.
Another solution is to tie in the definition of a castle with the development /demise of feudalism, but this again excludes many notable sites.

------------------
'Demeure par la verite'
Visit; Gordon's Scottish Castles Resource Page
Ruthy D I liked the otha topic!! Is Norman REALLY a dutch name??

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T O P I C R E V I E W
j.lo	Hi i have been looking through the forum and sorry if im wromg am yet to find the answer to my question. Who started of castles first was it the Normans? i have asked people but i am struggling to find the answer. People are giving me different answers and i am confused. I have used encyclopedias on the computer and lots of books from home and school anyone able to help it will be grately appreciated thanks j.lo
Peter	j.lo you may never get a straight answer. Castles evolved over thousands of years, along with mans needs & wants. We can (I suppose) start with some of the early Hill Forts. Though to call them a 'fort' is some what of a misnomer. You will no doubt know yourself that they covered many acres. These are spread all over Europe (with which I will just deal with). But as times became more settled people moved to the lowlands in smaller groups. Perhaps here the fortified village was born. In German areas and England these villages\camps quite possible had seperate 'strong' area. Where last ditch defense was possible. Having said that you will find in east walled cities in biblical times. I think I have mentioned before the huge walled cities of the Etruscans, which in many cases were expanded by the Romans. These in turn taken over in Medieval times. In short, no one can say when castles started, or who started them. They evolved over many years. Some people point to certain areas of Northern France, and the Normans. But modern opinion is that the Normans did not build in stone straight away. But copied the idea of a 'stone hall' within a wooden fortified enclosure. Other people on the site may not agree with my thoughts, and follow their own line of thinking. You will just have to study the possibilities and form your own conclusions.
Merlin	The normans sure weren't the first ones to build castles, but they have developped their own kind of castles. The fotified viking village or fort in Scandinavia was round: A high circle-wall with a crossroad in its centre, protecting 8 or 16 wooden houses, placed geometrically in the four quarters. This kind of castle wasn't common in the rest of Europe. The kings and noblemen of the german tribes outside the roman Empire had hill-forts as described by Peter. The medieval castle, appearing itself in very different types, was a descendant of those forts, but also of the late roman fortifications which were often build in stone and sometimes reused as castles from the 6/7th cent. AD onwards. But in Europe, stone-castles older than 11th cent. AD are very rare, except some larger royal castles. The kings and emperors in Germay and France started to build strong walls around their residences in the 9th cent. AD, due to the invasions of the hungarians, normans and Saracens.
Fox Atreides	I did I did!!! I started them! No, you're all wrong, I did! No way, it was me! Hehe, had to do that... ------------------ -Mattun- *The world can be as you want, when you are as the world wants you.*
Peter	I didn't realise 'Norman' was a Dutch name !
Fox Atreides	It isn't, why? ------------------ -Mattun- *The world can be as you want, when you are as the world wants you.*
AJR	To get back on the topic this thread is all about - that is who started castles, it does of course depend on ones definition of a castle. The Scandinavian "castles" seem to me to be mainly fortified villages. It depends which was there first - the houses, or the fortifications. If the fortifications came first, or if they were built simultaneously, then I am ready to accept that they were an early form of what we now call a castle. However, if the homes had been there for some time before the fortifications were erected, then I would call it a fortified village. Andrew [This message has been edited by AJR (edited 06-06-2001).]
Merlin	The walls and the houses were erected simultanously, always near the coast. So the viking castle-village (I agree, it's a mixed form) was a secure plave near a landing-point, it's function comparabale to that of any other 'pirates-nest' of later centuries. But the later, non-viking scandinavian castles are not similar to those early structures. But I just found pictures of the viking castle at Eketorp, that was reused in later times, the surrounding wall rebuild in stone. Have a look at: http://www.raa.se/eketorp Merlin [This message has been edited by Merlin (edited 06-06-2001).]
Gordon	Definition is certainly important, and in a wider definition, the mysterious Brochs of Scotland could be included. Some of these date to BC, and whilst their role as a residence has been questioned, they were certainly central to the communities they served, and most definitely provided protection against armed raiders. On the British scene they seem to predate the Roman invasion. These are stone structures, however later mottes & bailey castles were not and are regarded as castles. By inculding these, the ancient hill forts, it could be argued, should also be included. Essentially the point is that Peter is right in that castles developed from pre-existing structures, and this was a continuous process which began when man first began to build himself homes. To actually draw a line and state castles began here is impossible, unless one formulates a definition which is very very specific as to the type of structure included,(another impossible task given the variety of castle styles), or includes era/date boundaries, excluding what went before and after. This in itself would exclude many structures which are generally included. Another solution is to tie in the definition of a castle with the development /demise of feudalism, but this again excludes many notable sites. ------------------ 'Demeure par la verite' Visit; Gordon's Scottish Castles Resource Page
Ruthy D	I liked the otha topic!! Is Norman REALLY a dutch name??